Adam @ Heroku - Latest Comments in http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

phiggy — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

This is why I wish Heckle was a little more robust/well-used. It seems like it would be a great boon to the test-driven workflow, if only it weren't so finicky.

http://ruby.sadi.st/Heckle....

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

marktucks — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Great. Thanks, Adam.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Adam Wiggins — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

@marktucks - There are a lot of diverse opinions on the best way to write specs/tests, what framework to use, etc. I blog about this quite often, as you can tell: http://adam.blog.heroku.com... Reading through these should answer some of your questions, at least from one person's perspective.

Some other Ruby-centric resources on the subject I recommend:

http://blog.hasmanythrough....
http://blog.jayfields.com/
http://blog.davidchelimsky....

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

marktucks — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Is RSpec the de facto test framework i.e. what everyone is using, like Git?

Also, are there any really comprehensive test tutorials, including things like what to test, how to test, code coverage etc?

Thanks.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

JS — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Harlan Mills at IBM worked on useful methods of software engineering called "cleanroom software engineering". By the mid-70s they basically worked out how to build software that is provably correct by design at no additional cost beyond conventional software development methods. Comparing that to the present day methods of programming, we've regressed considerably in the last 30 years across most of the industry. More info can be found here if you're interested:
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/...

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

andrew — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

"Nearly all developers, myself included, spend most of our time in that state: not quite trusting that the code all works"

Fantastic quote. In ten years of development, no matter how amazing the code, or tests, this is our state of mind. I'm always amazed when things work the first time.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

ngvrnd — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

If a bug is a variance from spec, and the behavior you observed was from code which wasn't spec'd, was it a bug? Maybe an additional definition is needed; any code which isn't covered by the spec is also a bug.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Stephen Waits — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Who was testing your app all that time?

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Paul — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Interessant ideas.

Ohh and THANK YOU for havinf formulating this : "Nearly all developers, myself included, spend most of our time in that state: not quite trusting that the code all works.". That's SO TRUE (IMHO too, at least)!

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Adam Wiggins — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Thanks guys. I thought this post would be more controversial - glad to hear I'm not alone on this. :)

Now, playing devil's advocate to myself here, specs can only extend so far - i.e. to the edges of the component they belong to. In a service architecture there's still the interaction between components. I'm starting to develop some techniques to cover that, but it's a very different sort of thing. No doubt I'll post about that stuff at some point.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Giles Bowkett — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Absolutely! This is why debugger support is a bad thing. Development practices which are very close to bug-proof exist.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

josh — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Although I've been a TDD supporter for years, I hadn't yet learned BDD. I've been thinking its something I should do, and now I'm convinced. Thanks.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Harm — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

Splendid post! Today I refactored a large piece of code. Having specs (no complete coverage, but still) gave me a great sense of confidence in my code unknown to me before doing BDD (TDD). I'll never go back.

Re: http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2008/7/6/the_end_of_bugs/

Michael — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:25:01 -0000

word.